Re-activating your WoW account, or interested in "Trying Before You Buy"?Six Steps For Reducing The Pain Of Dungeon Runs
 Warcraft Loot Window - 'Greed' |
Looting rules are always a huge issue in the game of World of Warcraft.
Right from your first party where the Roll Window opens up for the first time, through to the highest level of progression raiding guilds, and everything that falls in between, loot and loot rules are a point of discussion and learning at best, and guild and relationship destruction at worst. |
Are There Any Core Loot Rules Anymore?
I used to think there were basic, core looting rules, and maybe at that time - before Burning Crusade came out - there were.
Now, however, after two expansion packs, an additional 20 levels of play and 150 more levels of professions, plus the growth of my own player experience, the looting rules have definitely changed from back in the "good old days" when looting rules were (ha ha) "simple":
The Old, Basic PUG (pick-up group, like from LFG) Loot Rules
- Roll ‘need’ on BOE or BOP equipment or professions recipes you’ll use on this toon.
- Roll ‘greed’ on BOE equipment for alternate toons, selling, or disenchanting
- Roll ‘greed’ on all lockboxes and profession materials (gems etc)
- Or, Pass on anything and everything if you so desire
- Negotiate with partymates after the winner has been declared for Greed rolls
- Use the manual /roll function to decide on who gets to open chests/tap herb/ore nodes
Note: These rules are still fine to use if you're running in Azeroth dungeons, because generally selling the piece of gear (in the AH) is worth more than any Enchanting shard you could get out of it, until you approach 50+
How Burning Crusade Influenced PUG Looting Rules
It was strange - by the time I got into running PUGs with the Burning Crusade dungeons it was a couple of months after the expansion pack had released, but right away I noticed one big difference in the social standard of PUG Looting Rules on my realm:
Experienced players were not only encouraging the collection of Shards to be distributed at the end of the run, but many were also beginning to lose any concern they had for getting to "greed" roll on an unusable BOP boss drop when there was no Enchanter/disenchanter in the group.
Disappearing was the paranoid Azeroth view that your partymates would be unlikely to last until the end of the dungeon run, and instead was entering a more lax view about loot that didn't seem to include the word "ninja" nearly as often. At least until folks got into BC raids ;)
About BC Loot Rules Attitude Changes
One can only speculate on the dynamics that came together to create this new, more relaxed attitude, but hey! That's where this is my blog and my place to do my personal speculation. I also really enjoy reading the speculations of those who read here, so thanks in advance for your comments! :) :)
When I look at the Looting Rules changes that seemed to naturally develop within the social understanding of many of our realm's regular PUGgers, I see a few important points that could have easily influenced it:
- Shortly after the release of Burning Crusade, Blizzard implemented a Roll Window for chests being opened within a group, forcing a Need/Greed/Pass roll window on any item that was green or higher in quality. No longer were people worried about WHO opened the chest in an instance, because the only items that weren't auto-shared by the party mechanics were white or grey in quality, which is seen as "trash".
- By the time players are entering Outland, they are powerful enough to dominate a fair amount of content within the game, without help. Anything below level 50 or so is likely something they can solo by this stage, which makes for a large pool of things that can be "farmed" for quick cash.
- By level 57-60, most players have already figured out their "niche" for making World of Warcraft gold, and it's NOT at-level dungeons. Upon entering Outland, in fact, many of my social guildmates found that the money given from quest completion and the sales of grey drops to vendors from the questing journey was a HUGE increase in the amount of money they had been earning in Azeroth, so many subscribed to the "do your quests, you'll have plenty of money" mindset.
- Some players have been so confused by a billion different "basic looting rules" that conflict with each other that they've resorted to simply hitting Greed or Pass on anything they can't personally use, and sometimes only Greeding on things they CAN use because they've also been scolded for Needing on an item that is "wrong for them".
One of the results of this change was very obvious to those who believe they have "unlucky dice" - if there was an Enchanter in the group to disenchant the unneeded BOP boss drops to be rolled on at the end of the run, it was more likely they'd actually get a shard than in the old system where everyone did a random /roll as soon as the item was disenchanted.
After all, having 3 shards go to the top 3 rollers once clearly shows that three players get a shard, whereas in the old "roll-as-you-get-it" system, one player could have a hot rolling streak and get all three shards.
Six Steps For Reducing The Pain Of Dungeon Runs
I haven't yet gotten to the discussion of how the introduction of Northrend influenced PUG looting rules on our realm yet, nor have I even touched on the different Looting Rules that Raiding Guilds adopt and how they help or hinder guild progress, but this entry is pretty long, so I'll have to save that for "Part Two".
In the mean time, I'd like to impart some advice to those who may be wondering, with all these changes in "social standards" for PUG looting rules, what's a good way to act when you're relatively new to the PUG game:
- Forget about the loot.
First and foremost, do your best to adopt a cool attitude for when a dungeon run yields zero upgrades of any sort, and perhaps only a rather large repair bill. YES, even when there's unfair looting practices in the party. Especially then. - Remember Names
Remember player names, good and bad, of people you've been in a PUG with, or in a guild with. For faster success, focus on remembering players who were GOOD to play with instead of the ones who were BAD to play with, and reach out to those good players for future PUGs. - Ask Up-front If There's An Enchanter
In my experience, in most PUGs it's me who clarifies whether there's an Enchanter in the group or not, and I try to do it right at the start of the instance when everyone is paying attention. This averts a lot of confusion later on. - If There's No Enchanter, Don't Feel Guilty Greeding
A lot of players nowadays will automatically pass on BOP boss gear they can't use, even if it's been determined that there is no Enchanter in the group to shard the drop. Don't let their habit make you feel guilty in this case - greed if you want, pass if you want, and know they can do the same. - Confirm With The Group Before Needing
A quick announcement to the group that you'd like to Need on a drop as an upgrade will quickly tell you if you're way off on your guess that it's a good upgrade. For the most part, nobody's going to balk at your interest in Needing, except in some very rare circumstances (to be discussed in another entry). No, you don't HAVE to let people know you plan to Need, but it's polite and will prevent you from getting bashed if you missed something key about the drop that makes it obvious it's more useful in another PUG member's hands. - Nodes: Offer to Roll Once, And Alternate Loots
If you're a Miner or Herbalist, find out early in the run who also shares your gathering profession within the group. From there, if you're not the only one, it's usually quite easy to get others to agree upon rolling for the first node, then alternating who loots the nodes as they continue to come up within the instance.
In Front Of Yogg Saron's Door, Ulduar
Stay Tuned For More Looting Rules Entries...
In future entries I will discuss my views of how the progression of the Burning Crusade expansion pack affected the PUG Looting Rules standards, and further explore how the introduction of Northrend altered the standard PUG player's view of dungeons and loot within them.
Eventually I'll get into discussing the various phases of Looting Rules that I've personally seen raids go through, as I've progressed from new raiding guilds through to the current guild I'm in which has maintained a solid and mature core since long before I got good enough to join their ranks.
Until then... Looking forward to your continued comments on this topic!
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!Related posts:
- Warcraft Looting Rules, Part Three: Intermediate
- Unwritten Rules to Party Loot Sharing
- Considering Looting Rules: Casual Guilds vs "Pass on BoP"
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I've been reading your blog for a couple of months as I've been doing research on my now 80 priest (first character) and I've finally decided to put aside our differences (with you being a scummy Horde and all :P) and make a comment. *golf clap*
Anyway, I kept myself at 79 for a couple weeks and this actually being one of the reasons. I'm not in a guild so I'm actually scared to start running heroics and to start raiding because I'm afraid that I'll get shafted on loot coming in as a filler of groups. I'm not interested in joining a guild at the moment and I have my reasons for that, but I don't feel that I should be getting shafted because I'm not a member of someone's guild. Everyone that runs should get equal opportunity for what comes up, right? Why is this not the case? I suppose this is something you'll be covering in a future entry, so I'll be looking forward to your POV on it.
I've also found that since I hit around 70 people are constantly trying to recruit me. I politely decline but in some cases where I actually like the player or have gained a relationship with them, I'll in turn say, "No ty, but if you ever need heals I'm in". To which I always get a, "No we have a anti PUG rule in the guild". So you need heals, you're constantly hounding me and talking about how great I am, but you're too picky to take me with you because I choose to not be in a guild? It kills me (and I think that was kind of a tangent).
Back to my main point *cough* why does looting in general have to be SO complicated? I would think the simple concept of "everyone gets a shot" (that's why we've got the need/greed system), need if you need...be polite and say you're needing and greed everything else. Why does there have to be any more to it than that, and more importantly, why can't some people even get that basic concept down to where it BECOMES an issue?
More of a rant I guess than an comment, but I'm definitely looking forward to your other posts about this. I really enjoy the posts that are particular to etiquette, something so few people actually have...
Amapele,
Great to hear from you, thank you so much for your comment! :)
I agree 100% that etiquette topics are incredibly interesting :)
And yes I've noticed too that it's way easier to get loot from within a guild than outside of it.
Raid loot topics are next up!
And btw, LOL "scummy Horde" :) :)
*bad retort* Yah well, you're..... pretty!
We can also have "discussions" about looting rules within guilds when for example we raid with another guild in a 25-people dunjeon; rules can be different in one guild from another one.
The day before yesterday the topic was: how many loots do we allow for each participant, and do we take into account the day or the raid period? A player won the roll several times during the raid period but he didn't understand why another player was prefered ; it was because this player didn't loot anything so far.
Mano´s last blog ..Décos à gogo
Nice!
Yikes, the anti-pug rule is a first!!! Sounds like one of those guilds that requires an online application and social security number.
Guessing most of us have a non-horde (cough - Alliance) player on some server or another... so, you're okay in everyone's book.
For me the most frustrating is folks that roll on gear that isn't an upgrade because they don't know better. If folks are not certain, always ask. Usually someone can provide a little input about that particular class OR ask for a moment while you evaluate.
A little courtesy goes a long way when raiding. If there are two mages in a raid/group and I win the first item, most often I will let the other mage have the other. Loot will always be there.
Yuppers...great post
Cathy´s last blog ..Guild Bank Maintenance
@ amapele
I certainly know all about your reluctance and worry over confusing rules when it comes to Heroics. I'm living that right now. I vented quite a bit about it in my comments for Val's post titled: The Leveling Game -vs- The Raider’s World
First off, I say just go for it. Get the Recount addon if you don't have it already, and learn how much damage (or healing) you can do. As a healer, you'll be in high demand for Heroics. When someone is spamming "LF Healz for H UP then gtg!" simply whisper - "I'm an 80 priest new to Heroics but want to join." That's a pretty straight, honest answer. You don't even have to mention that you're a goody-goody, tree-hugging, flower-sniffing ally, because they're all goody-goody allys too! You can all blow kisses to each other when you meet up for the instance! - LOL I crack myself up!
But seriously, join a heroic instance after telling the group leader where you honestly stand. You'll find that you get picked up more often than not. If not, no worries. I set up LFG for H OK and got the whisper, "Have you run it before?" and I honestly answered, "Not on H", and did NOT get an invite. Oh well - 2 minutes later I was in H VH.
Once you join, you can ask about the loot rules... or if you don't even want to do that, just copy what everyone else is doing. I do that a LOT. If a green item pops up, I watch what others do. You can ALWAYS be the last to choose NEED/GREED/PASS. I watched everyone select GREED last night on Green items, so I selected Greed, too. But when it came to Blue items, people were selecting PASS. So I selected PASS. It's really safe copying everyone else.
But the ultimate rule is if it's a real upgrade for you, select NEED. I always ask first "Can I need that?" Last night someone else was going to NEED a set of nice Purple bracers that are perfect for me, but when I asked about needing it, they said, "Yeah, go ahead and take it. I was going to NEED it, but it's off-spec for me a bit." - and then they selected PASS. So by me ASKING to NEED, I actually increased my chances of getting the item (and I did get it - Azure Cloth Bindings - woot!)
As far as guilds, too bad you're not a horde player on Draenor US. I'm often in a group with 2 or 3 other guidies, and we have to pick up one or two non-guild players to finish our group. They NEVER get shafted on loot. They're treated the same as anyone else. We all follow the NEED/GREED/PASS rules. If you get in a 5-man and they set it to master looter or something, I'd ask what the loot plans are... if it doesn't sit well, thank them and LEAVE. (This has never happened to me. Every PUG I've been in has been fair with loot distribution.)
Last thing - I won't start whining again about the altered rules when there is an Enchanter in the group eating up all the unusable blue and purple loot like a giant Beholder made out of mouths instead of eyes - we burned that topic out on the last post. But I'll say that it's been fair so far (even though I don't like the process). Last night's H VH run was the one exception - we were all passing on blues and at the end of the instance, there was no roll for mats. So someone made off with a big sack full of loot (but I'm not complaining because I have a smokin' set of bracers now!)
Anyway, jump in there and go for it. Or maybe just start all over with a horde toon. That would be ideal!
Best of luck to you!
Hey Shrimp!
I'm still reading although mainly lurking these days. It's Holiterra although I'm also known as Deimonia and Moondancer (Ally side.)
I'm in a great guild the majority of my groups have been PUGs. Yep, even at 80. :) I've always enjoyed pugging. I've met a lot of great friends and have the option to raid with a few guilds with Deimonia, my Affliction Destruction Warlock. It had a lot to with my performance within dungeons.
It was more than how much I could pew pew though. :) Paying attention to others besides myself is key. Also looking out for the healer when other dps was focused on PEW PEW more! When the poor healer was in the process of getting bent over and the mobs having their way with him/her. As tanged DPS I always hang out by the healer. Healer appreciates it, tank does too since the heals doesn't die, we don't wipe, and he doesn't have to worry about rounding those mobs up.
It's important to come prepared, even if I get a whisper the only thing I have to do is go to the nearest mailbox and pick up items that I have mailed to myself.
You can be helpful regardless of what role you play within a group. Of course, some classes will be able to do more than others. For example, with my Warlock I set out healthstones at the beginning and tell people if they need more just to let me know. I soulstone the healer, and let them know they've been soulstoned. They rarely need it, but it's a precaution method. Although the people I PUG with aren't in my guild I still look out for them while we are together. Even though it's a virtual world, I still treat people how I want to be treated. Even though I'm not healing with Deim, I'm still looking out for those within my group whenever I step into an instance.
As with my Holy Priest I'm usually the one organizing the PUGs so I feel I do set the pace before we run the instance. My rules are need if it's an upgrade greed on everything else. I tell people that they might be playing with those of various skill levels if someone is learning be polite because we all started at the beginning at one time. The good news is I haven't had a problem with anyone being a jerk and people are always whispering me to run an instance with them.
Heals & DOTs´s last blog ..Update on Destruction build, checking out Demonology; Spell rotation
@ Mortigan
Just wanted to thank you for the pep talk, although I've yet to run a heroic...i realized my SP was apparently too low and have been working to get that up, but more importantly I was also busy acquiring my "Of Stormwind" title. *primp primp*
Perhaps this weekend I shall make the big leap, tree-hugging and flower-sniffing along the way! XD
Very good read.
I especially agree with point #5. No you are not required to ask but it prevents any trouble with the group later on.
For example, a lower level group was looking for another player for DPS. I offered up my skills and we went into the dungeon. No mention of loot rules were mentioned. I politely asked if I could need some items we ran across and they told me to just roll, no need to ask. Okay with me. We ran upon a boss and conquered it and it dropped a blue chestpiece which I needed. I asked if I could roll greed and the leader of the group said that it was okay but he was rolling greed as well. It was okay with me. I won the blue and for the rest of the dungeon the leader who I won it from was "short" with me, but he couldn't say anything because I asked and won it fair and square.
Anyway, I would definitely ask about loot rules up front because they sometimes (most of the time, it seems) won't be explained upfront.
Hoggwarts´s last blog ..I’m Cursed
since i seldom pug, i guess i haven't run into some of the issues being raised here. i will however explain the rules our group tends to use when we do 5 man content and the reason why we do so.
1. with an enchanter
if the item is not needed, the enchanter will role greed on it and de the item. if someone needs the item, they choose need. at the end of the run, the enchanter (usually me) asks for random rolls on the shards that were collected.
2. without an enchanter
this is really simple. if you need the item roll need and if you dont roll greed. if no one needed it, then its luck of the dice and they can vendor the item for gold.
why do we have these particular rules in our group? enchanting mats are very expensive to buy, and since i am running with guildies who are in a raiding guild, enchants are often needed as new pieces of gear are received. i realize that some might think that selling the items to vendor might be preferable but, with dream shards costing anywhere from 10-12 g on our server, would you even get that much from the sale of the item? i doubt it unless its a weapon.
if we ever bring a pug into one of our groups, we always set up the loot rules up front. this avoids any misunderstanding. and on the few times i have pugged to help out a friend, i always ask up front so i dont have any either.